• DDMsg Read - PersonalMail

    From deon@VERT/ALTERANT to Nightfox on Fri Jan 29 14:08:38 2021
    Hey Nightfox,

    I just configured your Msg reader for personal mail today - first time I've seen it (and been meaning to look at it). Nice job - like it :)

    I thought I'd share 2 things I noticed, not sure if you are aware.

    1) While reading a message, if you use ? (help), and then press "q" to return back - it returns back to the message, but doesnt render the message header.
    If however, while using help, you return from the final pause, and use any other char (except "q"), then mesage is redrawn correctly (with header).

    2) I often use a wide terminal, a mix of Syncterm (132x137) or iTerm (much wider).

    In the list display, I've noticed that when I'm using a wider terminal, the date is "blue" except for the last digit of minutes, the colon and the seconds. (It doesnt surface on an 80 col display.)

    EG: If the date was 2021-01-06 01:23:45, then the 3:45 is the dull white color (normal?), and the rest of the date is blue.

    In addition the lightbar (and the list) work well, but the lightbar also stops before the 3:45 as you move up/down. (So the same last 4 chars are not included).

    I'm happy to give you a pic if that helps.

    Anyway, thought you might like to know.

    ...δεσ∩

    ... Everybody is somebody else's weirdo.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Alterant | an SBBS in Docker on Pi!
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to deon on Fri Jan 29 08:26:42 2021
    Re: DDMsg Read - PersonalMail
    By: deon to Nightfox on Fri Jan 29 2021 02:08 pm

    I just configured your Msg reader for personal mail today - first time I've seen it (and been meaning to look at it). Nice job - like it :)

    Thanks, I'm glad you like it. :)

    1) While reading a message, if you use ? (help), and then press "q" to return back - it returns back to the message, but doesnt render the message header. If however, while using help, you return from the final pause, and use any other char (except "q"), then mesage is redrawn correctly (with header).

    This isn't something I've seen. And I'm not quite sure what you mean by pressing Q to return back, except from the final pause? When viewing the help screen, any key you press should have it continue writing the help screen until you get to the final pause, and then pressing any key will have it go back (not just Q). I tried it just now and can't reproduce the issue you're describing.

    2) I often use a wide terminal, a mix of Syncterm (132x137) or iTerm (much wider).

    In the list display, I've noticed that when I'm using a wider terminal, the date is "blue" except for the last digit of minutes, the colon and the seconds. (It doesnt surface on an 80 col display.)

    EG: If the date was 2021-01-06 01:23:45, then the 3:45 is the dull white color (normal?), and the rest of the date is blue.

    In addition the lightbar (and the list) work well, but the lightbar also stops before the 3:45 as you move up/down. (So the same last 4 chars are not included).

    I'm happy to give you a pic if that helps.

    Anyway, thought you might like to know.

    A screenshot would help, as I haven't seen these issues.
    It looks like iTerm is only available for Mac OS? I don't have a Mac, so I wouldn't be able to test that.

    Nightfox

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From deon@VERT/ALTERANT to Nightfox on Sat Jan 30 08:13:24 2021
    Re: DDMsg Read - PersonalMail
    By: Nightfox to deon on Fri Jan 29 2021 08:26 am

    This isn't something I've seen. And I'm not quite sure what you mean by pressing Q to return back, except from the final pause? When viewing the help screen, any key you press should have it continue writing the help screen until you get to the
    final pause, and then pressing any key will have it go back (not just Q). I tried it just now and can't reproduce the issue you're describing.

    Yes, in the help screen, "any key" should return you to the message. But if that key is "Q", the header doesnt return, just the message body.

    Here is an example:
    https://ibb.co/GJ3W97F

    A screenshot would help, as I haven't seen these issues.
    It looks like iTerm is only available for Mac OS? I don't have a Mac, so I wouldn't be able to test that.

    I can reproduce it with Syncterm as well - just pick a wide screen like 132x37.

    Here is an example:
    https://ibb.co/W3yMpwB

    ...δεσ∩

    ... I wonder if we ccan speak through rose-tinted spectacles.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Alterant | an SBBS in Docker on Pi!
  • From Nelgin@VERT/EOTLBBS to Nightfox on Fri Jan 29 16:54:38 2021
    Nightfox wrote:
    Re: DDMsg Read - PersonalMail
    By: deon to Nightfox on Fri Jan 29 2021 02:08 pm

    I just configured your Msg reader for personal mail today - first time I've seen it (and been meaning to look at it). Nice job - like it :)

    Thanks, I'm glad you like it. :)

    1) While reading a message, if you use ? (help), and then press "q" to return back - it returns back to the message, but doesnt render the message header. If however, while using help, you return from the final pause, and use any other char (except "q"), then mesage is redrawn correctly (with header).

    This isn't something I've seen. And I'm not quite sure what you mean by pressing Q to return back, except from the final pause? When viewing the help screen, any key you press should have it continue writing the help screen until you get to the final pause, and then pressing any key will have it go back (not just Q). I tried it just now and can't reproduce the issue you're describing.

    It is because I sent you an email about it with a screen cap :)

    A screenshot would help, as I haven't seen these issues.

    Just sent on this issue.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to deon on Fri Jan 29 14:42:45 2021
    Re: DDMsg Read - PersonalMail
    By: deon to Nightfox on Sat Jan 30 2021 08:13 am

    Yes, in the help screen, "any key" should return you to the message. But if that key is "Q", the header doesnt return, just the message body.

    Interesting.. I had tried using Q and wasn't seeing that issue.

    Nightfox

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Nelgin@VERT/EOTLBBS to Nightfox on Fri Jan 29 19:55:07 2021
    Nightfox wrote:
    Re: DDMsg Read - PersonalMail
    By: deon to Nightfox on Sat Jan 30 2021 08:13 am

    Yes, in the help screen, "any key" should return you to the message. But if that key is "Q", the header doesnt return, just the message body.

    Interesting.. I had tried using Q and wasn't seeing that issue.

    Happens in both SyncTerm and in a terminal telnet session.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Dream Master@VERT/CIAD to Nightfox on Fri Jan 29 22:09:40 2021
    Re: DDMsg Read - PersonalMail
    By: Nightfox to deon on Fri Jan 29 2021 08:26 am

    A screenshot would help, as I haven't seen these issues.
    It looks like iTerm is only available for Mac OS? I don't have a Mac, so I wouldn't be able to test that.

    I can't speak for the problem, but I will say that iTerm and iTerm2 are excellent emulators. The sad part about BBSing is that the assumption is that everything is 80-column. When we build screens, input fields, etc., we assume "80" but it could vary. For example, when I am working, I run 132x43 (132 columns by 43 rows). When I telnet/ssh into a BBS from a shell, sometimes things display right, sometimes they don't. Oh, well!

    btw, get yourself a Mac. They're so sweet (sorry, a little Ferris Bueler there).

    Brian Klauss <-> Dream Master
    Caught in a Dream | caughtinadream.com a Synchronet BBS

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Caught in a Dream - caughtinadream.com
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Nelgin on Sat Jan 30 10:12:36 2021
    Re: Re: DDMsg Read - PersonalMail
    By: Nelgin to Nightfox on Fri Jan 29 2021 07:55 pm

    Yes, in the help screen, "any key" should return you to the
    message. But if that key is "Q", the header doesnt return, just
    the message body.

    Interesting.. I had tried using Q and wasn't seeing that issue.

    Happens in both SyncTerm and in a terminal telnet session.

    What do you mean by "terminal telnet"? SyncTerm is a telnet terminal emulator.

    Nightfox

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Dream Master on Sat Jan 30 10:20:50 2021
    Re: DDMsg Read - PersonalMail
    By: Dream Master to Nightfox on Fri Jan 29 2021 10:09 pm

    I can't speak for the problem, but I will say that iTerm and iTerm2 are excellent emulators. The sad part about BBSing is that the assumption is that everything is 80-column. When we build screens, input fields, etc., we assume "80" but it could vary. For example, when I am working, I run 132x43 (132 columns by 43 rows). When I telnet/ssh into a BBS from a shell, sometimes things display right, sometimes they don't. Oh, well!

    It seems 80 columns is fairly standard, but you're right, there are wider terminals too. BBS stuff ideally should be taken into account, and if they're hard-coded to assume 80 columns, at least that should display okay on a wider terminal and not mess up.

    btw, get yourself a Mac. They're so sweet (sorry, a little Ferris Bueler there).

    "If you have the means, I highly recommend picking one up. They're so choice." :)

    I've had Macs before. I thought they were cool, but I can't really say they made me want to switch. I've been a long-time PC user (DOS and then Windows) and have also used Linux, and Mac seems like another version of the same kind of thing. I was also briefly doing some development work with a Mac for one of my jobs, and using Automator to write some scripts, I remember Automator crashing fairly often. Also I used XCode to do some development and XCode crashed a few times when I was using it.. It was a bit frustrating. Maybe it has gotten better now though.
    Also, now that Apple has switched from Intel to their own M1 processor, I'd be concerned about older software running. At least for PC, sometimes I still like to play older games & maybe run some older apps that are no longer developed.

    Nightfox

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Nelgin@VERT/EOTLBBS to Nightfox on Sat Jan 30 17:27:50 2021
    Re: Re: DDMsg Read - PersonalMail
    By: Nightfox to Nelgin on Sat Jan 30 2021 10:12:36

    What do you mean by "terminal telnet"? SyncTerm is a telnet terminal

    Using telnet in a linux shell.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Dream Master@VERT/CIAD to Nightfox on Sat Jan 30 16:19:21 2021
    Re: DDMsg Read - PersonalMail
    By: Nightfox to Dream Master on Sat Jan 30 2021 10:20 am

    "If you have the means, I highly recommend picking one up. They're so choice." :)

    I've always loved that line. When I've had the chance to use it, I do. Anyone born in the 00s has no clue when I say it and my oldest daughter (19) who has watched it with me a few times rolls her eyes when I do say it.

    I've had Macs before. I thought they were cool, but I can't really say they made me want to switch. I've been a long-time PC user (DOS and then Windows) and have also used Linux, and Mac seems like another version of the same kind of thing. I was also briefly doing some development work with a Mac for one of my jobs, and using Automator to write some scripts, I remember Automator crashing fairly often. Also I used XCode to do some development and XCode crashed a few times when I was using it.. It was a bit frustrating. Maybe it has gotten better now though.

    I've been using Macs for some years. I consider them rock solid. Don't worry, I'm a DOS/Windows/*nix person but I favor my Mac above everything else. Apple has screwed up a few times and they've learned. XCode behaves well now. My next Mac will be an M1 MacBook Pro (13"). I currently use a MacBook Pro (13") from 2016 and an iMac from 2014. My youngest son (15) wants my MBP. No one gets the iMac.

    Also, now that Apple has switched from Intel to their own M1 processor, I'd
    be concerned about older software running. At least for PC, sometimes I still like to play older games & maybe run some older apps that are no longer developed.

    Their emulation is rock solid. They mastered this when Apple switched from PowerPC to Intel. There will always be those one-off software packages that simply refuse to work, but, we will see.

    Brian Klauss <-> Dream Master
    Caught in a Dream | caughtinadream.com a Synchronet BBS

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Caught in a Dream - caughtinadream.com
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Dream Master on Sat Jan 30 20:38:04 2021
    Re: DDMsg Read - PersonalMail
    By: Dream Master to Nightfox on Sat Jan 30 2021 04:19 pm

    "If you have the means, I highly recommend picking one up. They're so
    choice." :)

    I've always loved that line. When I've had the chance to use it, I do. Anyone born in the 00s has no clue when I say it and my oldest daughter (19) who has watched it with me a few times rolls her eyes when I do say it.

    As popular as that movie was, I'm a little surprised it isn't quoted more often and that I rarely see a meme based on it. Probably the most quoted line I hear is "Bueller... Bueller.. Bueller.." when waiting for someone. But what about "I weep for the future", or "Hey batter batter batter, sa-wing batter!"

    Also, now that Apple has switched from Intel to their own M1
    processor, I'd be concerned about older software running. At least
    for PC, sometimes I still like to play older games & maybe run some
    older apps that are no longer developed.

    Their emulation is rock solid. They mastered this when Apple switched from PowerPC to Intel. There will always be those one-off software packages that simply refuse to work, but, we will see.

    One of the first Macs I got was a Mac Mini in 2005 (I think), right after they switched to Intel. I remember the Rosetta emulator only lasting for a couple versions of OS X before Apple removed it. I imagine the transition period this time may be similar, and you won't be able to run Intel software on a Mac for very long. But maybe I'm wrong.. It seemed that the ability to run Windows natively on a Mac was one of their selling points (which was one reason I was a little surprised when Apple decided to switch away from Intel). If people want to keep running Windows on their Mac, maybe they'll keep some level of Intel emulation so that people can at least run Intel-based Windows via virtualization or something. Microsoft also has an ARM-based version of Windows 10 too, with its own Intel x86 (32-bit) emulator, so maybe Apple won't go through much trouble of continuing to support Intel software. I don't know..

    One of the other main issues I have with Apple in general is that they lack configuration options for their computers. For laptops, some manufaturers let you put in a second hard drive for more storage (you might opt for an SSD for the boot drive and a large HDD for storage, for instance), or what have you. Several years ago, I heard Apple had started making their Macs with everything sealed & soldered in, so you couldn't even upgrade the RAM - but I think they're starting to allow easy upgrades again? And then I also don't know if you can replace the battery on their MacBooks anymore.. As far as their desktops, I've heard the iMac can be difficult to upgrade, due to how you have to take it apart & put it back together, and their more easily upgradeable Mac Pro costs an arm and a leg. Apple just doesn't seem to have a PC I'd want to buy.

    Due to the above reasons, I'd probably lean toward building a hackintosh, except now with Apple's M1 processor, that's probably not a viable plan anymore.

    Nightfox

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to Nightfox on Tue Feb 2 09:47:28 2021
    On 1/30/2021 11:12 AM, Nightfox wrote:
    Yes, in the help screen, "any key" should return you to the
    message. But if that key is "Q", the header doesnt return, just
    the message body.

    Interesting.. I had tried using Q and wasn't seeing that issue.

    Happens in both SyncTerm and in a terminal telnet session.

    What do you mean by "terminal telnet"? SyncTerm is a telnet terminal emulator.

    I'm guessing, just using the default telnet application in a terminal,
    which may vary (windows: git/msys bash, cmd, powershell etc) and even
    the default terminal app, vs windows terminal (new) and/or another
    terminal emulator (conemu, iterm2, xterm etc).
    --
    Michael J. Ryan (tracker1)
    +o roughneckbbs.com
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com
  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to Nightfox on Tue Feb 2 09:48:52 2021
    On 1/30/2021 11:20 AM, Nightfox wrote:

    It seems 80 columns is fairly standard, but you're right, there
    are wider terminals too. BBS stuff ideally should be taken into
    account, and if they're hard-coded to assume 80 columns, at least
    that should display okay on a wider terminal and not mess up.

    I find a lot of ANSi files are optimized to assume 80-column and bork on
    wider displays.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan (tracker1)
    +o roughneckbbs.com
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com
  • From Digital Man@VERT to Tracker1 on Tue Feb 2 11:05:51 2021
    Re: Re: DDMsg Read - PersonalMail
    By: Tracker1 to Nightfox on Tue Feb 02 2021 09:48 am

    On 1/30/2021 11:20 AM, Nightfox wrote:

    It seems 80 columns is fairly standard, but you're right, there
    are wider terminals too. BBS stuff ideally should be taken into
    account, and if they're hard-coded to assume 80 columns, at least
    that should display okay on a wider terminal and not mess up.

    I find a lot of ANSi files are optimized to assume 80-column and bork on wider displays.

    Such files can be "fixed" by converting to .msg/asc using
    "ans2msg <infile.ans> <outfile.msg> -80"

    A conditional new-line will be added for each line where there is text in column 80.
    --
    digital man

    Synchronet/BBS Terminology Definition #26:
    DTE = Data Terminal Equipment
    Norco, CA WX: 69.3°F, 49.0% humidity, 0 mph W wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Vertrauen ■ Home of Synchronet ■ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to all on Wed Feb 3 00:34:44 2021
    Re: Re: DDMsg Read - PersonalMail
    By: Digital Man to Tracker1 on Tue Feb 02 2021 11:05 am

    Re: Re: DDMsg Read - PersonalMail
    By: Tracker1 to Nightfox on Tue Feb 02 2021 09:48 am

    On 1/30/2021 11:20 AM, Nightfox wrote:

    It seems 80 columns is fairly standard, but you're right, there
    are wider terminals too. BBS stuff ideally should be taken into
    account, and if they're hard-coded to assume 80 columns, at least
    that should display okay on a wider terminal and not mess up.

    I find a lot of ANSi files are optimized to assume 80-column and bork
    on wider displays.

    Such files can be "fixed" by converting to .msg/asc using
    "ans2msg <infile.ans> <outfile.msg> -80"

    A conditional new-line will be added for each line where there is text in column 80.


    my rule of thumb is draw no further than col 77
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Nelgin@VERT/EOTLBBS to Nightfox on Wed Feb 3 14:21:03 2021
    Nightfox wrote:
    Re: DDMsg Read - PersonalMail
    By: deon to Nightfox on Sat Jan 30 2021 08:13 am

    Yes, in the help screen, "any key" should return you to the message. But if that key is "Q", the header doesnt return, just the message body.

    Interesting.. I had tried using Q and wasn't seeing that issue.

    Well, I used exactly the same settings on your BBS and everything worked as advertized. Unless it is some sort of change in a later version. I forgot to check what version of sbbs you're running.

    I also tried converting the files from dos2unix. I can't remember if you're running Windows but that didn't make any difference either. I'm at a loss as
    to why it functions on yours but not on others' bbs.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Nelgin on Wed Feb 3 13:33:41 2021
    Re: Re: DDMsg Read - PersonalMail
    By: Nelgin to Nightfox on Wed Feb 03 2021 02:21 pm

    Interesting.. I had tried using Q and wasn't seeing that issue.

    Well, I used exactly the same settings on your BBS and everything worked as advertized. Unless it is some sort of change in a later version. I forgot to check what version of sbbs you're running.

    I also tried converting the files from dos2unix. I can't remember if you're running Windows but that didn't make any difference either. I'm at a loss as to why it functions on yours but not on others' bbs.

    I'm running my BBS in Windows. I'm currently using a Synchronet 3.18c daily build from January 23rd.

    Nightfox

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to Dream Master on Thu Feb 4 04:48:02 2021
    On 1/30/2021 4:19 PM, Dream Master wrote:

    I've been using Macs for some years. I consider them rock solid.
    Don't worry, I'm a DOS/Windows/*nix person but I favor my Mac above everything else. Apple has screwed up a few times and they've
    learned. XCode behaves well now. My next Mac will be an M1 MacBook
    Pro (13"). I currently use a MacBook Pro (13") from 2016 and an iMac
    from 2014. My youngest son (15) wants my MBP. No one gets the iMac.

    I passed my old mid 2014 rMBP (last one with nvidia graphics) to my
    daughter a little over a year ago. I built my new desktop around that
    time and ran Linux (PopOS) for about 3 months before switching back to Windows... I couldn't get my gpu working without a bleeding edge kernel
    and couldn't get VMs working on that kernel, so I just switched and now
    use Windows on my desktop and WSL2 and/or Docker for most of my actual
    work on the machine. Far fewer headaches than expected.

    I've been thinking about the M1, but not a fan of the touchbar and
    paying so much more for a decent amount of storage isn't a great value
    imo... I need at least 512mb, but better with 1gb. And I might have
    trouble with the 8gb ram limit, I know it's way faster and that makes
    up for a lot, but I tend to run databases in containers on project work,
    and it takes up a lot of resting memory.

    Also, now that Apple has switched from Intel to their own M1
    processor, I'd be concerned about older software running. At least
    for PC, sometimes I still like to play older games & maybe run some
    older apps that are no longer developed.

    Their emulation is rock solid. They mastered this when Apple
    switched from PowerPC to Intel. There will always be those one-off
    software packages that simply refuse to work, but, we will see.

    Yeah, their x86 emulation appears to be really reasonable for most
    things. I've also not heard any massive complaints/issues about the
    beta Docker Desktop release either, which is pretty great.

    I've almost got an M1 air (cheapest model) just to play with on my
    vacation. I was going to do a road trip for my vacation time last week,
    but it looked like Louisianna was going to lock down again (first
    destination choice) and California hadn't opened back up yet (PCH trip
    was second choice). So I just stayed home... didn't get to de-stress as
    I usually can on a road trip though. Been kind of apathetic since
    starting back at work this week. Maybe time to start looking for
    something else.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan (tracker1)
    +o roughneckbbs.com
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com
  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to Nightfox on Thu Feb 4 05:03:11 2021
    On 1/30/2021 9:38 PM, Nightfox wrote:

    ... maybe Apple won't go through much trouble of continuing
    to support Intel software.

    I don't think x86 emulation is going anywhere, afaik, they've got some
    heavily optimized combinations of hardware/software paths for x86
    emulation specifically, and I think WINE and derivatives along with
    Docker are some big use cases for a lot of people, not counting full
    Windows in emulation. As to ARM Windows, it's currently OEM or
    developer access only.


    One of the other main issues I have with Apple in general is that
    they lack configuration options for their computers. For laptops,
    some manufaturers let you put in a second hard drive for more storage
    (you might opt for an SSD for the boot drive and a large HDD for
    storage, for instance), or what have you.

    The new M1 macs are really a full-on single board computer, the RAM is integrated, why they're all 8gb. Though it's crazy fast, which makes up
    for the limited amount in a LOT of scenarios.

    The storage is soldered on board, which sucks from an upgrade
    standpoint. But it's been the direction that Apple has gone, short of plunking down big money for effectively workstation hardware. And in a
    lot of ways it makes sense. Outside of techies, the *vast* majority of
    people don't ever upgrade their memory or drive storage in these
    devices. I'd personally prefer to be able to upgrade. When I got my
    mid-2014 mbp, I was shocked I couldn't upgrade the ram, I actually
    returned the one I originally ordered and wound up with the top end
    model for the time (needed it for a presentation the following day, no
    sleep that night).

    Several years ago, I heard Apple had started making their Macs with everything sealed & soldered in, so you couldn't even upgrade the RAM
    - but I think they're starting to allow easy upgrades again? And then
    I also don't know if you can replace the battery on their MacBooks
    anymore..

    Their laptops are less upgradeable with the new M1 macs than ever
    before. It's pretty much a single-board computer, as mentioned above.

    As far as their desktops, I've heard the iMac can be difficult to
    upgrade, due to how you have to take it apart & put it back together,
    and their more easily upgradeable Mac Pro costs an arm and a leg.
    Apple just doesn't seem to have a PC I'd want to buy.

    Yeah, the iMacs are largely not meant to be user upgradeable other than ram/storage on some models... doing a CPU upgrade is kind of a bad idea,
    and I never thought they were a good idea for anyone that would want to upgrade later. At least they hold their value pretty well, so buying a
    higher end and selling the old is a decent option.

    And yeah, their Mac Pro is pretty much workstation class (and priced) hardware. They don't really have a real mid-range option.


    Due to the above reasons, I'd probably lean toward building a
    hackintosh, except now with Apple's M1 processor, that's probably not
    a viable plan anymore.

    I ran a hackintosh for a number of years on my i7-4790K, which ran very
    well, of course now I'd need a non nvidia gpu for anything resembling a current OS release. And I agree, the M1 is going to make the hackintosh
    a dead end. I may get the cheapest M1 air model, but that's as far as I
    might go... if I release anything that can work on mac, would probably
    just rely as much as possible on github or azure build agents for mac.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan (tracker1)
    +o roughneckbbs.com
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Tracker1 on Thu Feb 4 13:01:35 2021
    Re: Re: DDMsg Read - PersonalMail
    By: Tracker1 to Nightfox on Thu Feb 04 2021 05:03 am

    ... maybe Apple won't go through much trouble of continuing
    to support Intel software.

    I don't think x86 emulation is going anywhere, afaik, they've got some heavily optimized combinations of hardware/software paths for x86 emulation specifically, and I think WINE and derivatives along with Docker are some big use cases for a lot of people, not counting full Windows in emulation. As to ARM Windows, it's currently OEM or
    developer access only.

    As far as WINE, from what I understand, WINE isn't a hardware emulator, it's just an 'emulator' of Windows APIs, mapping them to similar Linux APIs so that Windows binaries can run on *nix.

    The new M1 macs are really a full-on single board computer, the RAM is integrated, why they're all 8gb. Though it's crazy fast, which makes up for the limited amount in a LOT of scenarios.

    The storage is soldered on board, which sucks from an upgrade
    standpoint. But it's been the direction that Apple has gone, short of plunking down big money for effectively workstation hardware. And in a lot of ways it makes sense. Outside of techies, the *vast* majority of people don't ever upgrade their memory or drive storage in these
    devices. I'd personally prefer to be able to upgrade. When I got my mid-2014 mbp, I was shocked I couldn't upgrade the ram, I actually returned the one I originally ordered and wound up with the top end
    model for the time (needed it for a presentation the following day, no sleep that night).

    I'd prefer to be able to upgrade, or at least have the option of having a crazy-high amount of RAM when I buy it in the first place so I probably won't feel a need to upgrade for a while.

    Nightfox

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to Nightfox on Fri Feb 5 08:06:55 2021
    On 2/4/2021 2:01 PM, Nightfox wrote:
    ... maybe Apple won't go through much trouble of continuing
    to support Intel software.

    I don't think x86 emulation is going anywhere, afaik, they've got some
    heavily optimized combinations of hardware/software paths for x86
    emulation specifically, and I think WINE and derivatives along with
    Docker are some big use cases for a lot of people, not counting full
    Windows in emulation. As to ARM Windows, it's currently OEM or
    developer access only.

    As far as WINE, from what I understand, WINE isn't a hardware emulator,
    it's just an 'emulator' of Windows APIs, mapping them to similar Linux
    APIs so that Windows binaries can run on *nix.

    It is just an API implementation, but being as *MOST* Windows software
    and games are x86 based, the emulation is still necessary.


    I'd prefer to be able to upgrade, or at least have the option of having a crazy-high amount of RAM when I buy it in the first place so I probably won't feel a need to upgrade for a while.

    While I agree, the fact is that most people don't/won't ever upgrade so
    not having the option simplifies the production designs and reduces
    material costs, so I don't fault Apple for doing it. I'm less inclined
    to buy their stuff as well. Bigger motivations for buying their laptops
    have actually been the best touchpad on any laptop, above average screen
    and above average keyboard (though not as good as pre-2015 models),
    which are the parts of the hardware I interact with most.

    I'd like to see at least a 16gb model myself as well, for most 8gb will
    work fine as it's extremely fast compared to most system ram interfaces.
    But as I tend to run several databases etc while doing development work,
    I don't think 8gb is enough... I'm typically running at 12-15gb in use
    on my work laptop, which is at 16gb, when my assigned laptop comes back,
    I'm usually around 18-22gb or memory in use... same on my desktop
    (though I have 64gb installed there).

    Really <3 Docker these days, as I can spin up/down everything I need as
    project dependencies and spin them down when switching to something
    else. But I still need more than 8gb ram typically.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan (tracker1)
    +o roughneckbbs.com
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Tracker1 on Fri Feb 5 13:04:13 2021
    Re: Re: Apple Macs
    By: Tracker1 to Nightfox on Fri Feb 05 2021 08:06 am

    While I agree, the fact is that most people don't/won't ever upgrade so not having the option simplifies the production designs and reduces material costs, so I don't fault Apple for doing it. I'm less inclined
    to buy their stuff as well. Bigger motivations for buying their laptops have actually been the best touchpad on any laptop, above average screen and above average keyboard (though not as good as pre-2015 models),
    which are the parts of the hardware I interact with most.

    I had a 2012 17" MacBook for a little while. I thought it was good overall, but I wouldn't say I was overly impressed with it compared to other laptops. I don't think the screen was above average, and I didn't really care for the lack of physical buttons for the trackpad. As for the trackpad itself, I wouldn't call it "the best touchpad on any laptop" - I didn't really see anything spectacular about it that set it apart.

    Nightfox

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From deon@VERT/ALTERANT to Tracker1 on Sat Feb 6 11:08:42 2021
    Re: Re: Apple Macs
    By: Tracker1 to Nightfox on Fri Feb 05 2021 08:06 am

    Really <3 Docker these days, as I can spin up/down everything I need as project dependencies and spin them down when switching to something
    else. But I still need more than 8gb ram typically.

    Wow, you must be running some large stuff on your laptop?

    I too develop on a MacBook Pro - and my iMac - depends where I am as to which one I use.

    I think I've only given my iMac 4GB of ram for docker to work with (my laptop only gives docker 2GB), and I load some large DB's in it (there must be about 1-2mil records) and it performs OK, not fast I admit. Maybe that's not large? :)

    But you are right - for developing, docker makes things pretty easy. I use "syncthing" to keep my laptop and imac development directory in sync, so when I switch between one or the other, I just kill the containers on my laptop and restart them on the imac and keep going (or visa-versa).

    When I'm finished with a feature, I push the code to my github, which (depending on the project), builds the container that ends up on the live server. With a Dockerfile that is consistent between environments there is rarely any localisation issues with deployment...

    ...δεσ∩

    ... Never underestimate the power of human stupidity.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Alterant | an SBBS in Docker on Pi!
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Nightfox on Sat Feb 6 08:39:00 2021
    Nightfox wrote to Tracker1 <=-

    I had a 2012 17" MacBook for a little while. I thought it was good overall, but I wouldn't say I was overly impressed with it compared to other laptops.

    I was working in a Mac/Windows shop when they came out, and we had a handful of them in the office (most were Dell 14" laptops, MacBook Pro 15s and Air 13s.)

    I think the 17" could make a great desktop replacement system, now. I wish
    I'd had more time to play with one.

    The killer laptop was the old Dell XPS 15; Retina-like resolution, lots of horsepower, greta build quality and much cheaper than the MBPs were buying when comparably equipped.




    ... Remove ambiguities and convert to specifics
    --- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ realitycheckBBS -- http://realitycheckBBS.org
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to poindexter FORTRAN on Sat Feb 6 15:11:09 2021
    Re: Re: Apple Macs
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Nightfox on Sat Feb 06 2021 08:39 am

    I had a 2012 17" MacBook for a little while. I thought it was good
    overall, but I wouldn't say I was overly impressed with it compared
    to other laptops.

    I was working in a Mac/Windows shop when they came out, and we had a handful of them in the office (most were Dell 14" laptops, MacBook Pro 15s and Air 13s.)

    I think the 17" could make a great desktop replacement system, now. I wish I'd had more time to play with one.

    I thought Apple stopped making 17" laptops?

    Nightfox

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Tony Langdon@VERT to Nightfox on Sun Feb 7 19:52:00 2021
    On 02-04-21 13:01, Nightfox wrote to Tracker1 <=-

    As far as WINE, from what I understand, WINE isn't a hardware emulator, it's just an 'emulator' of Windows APIs, mapping them to similar Linux APIs so that Windows binaries can run on *nix.

    "WINE" stands for "WINE Is Not An Emulator". Technically, it's an API translation layer, as you mentioned above.



    ... Brain: the apparatus with which we think we think
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  • From Tony Langdon@VERT to poindexter FORTRAN on Sun Feb 7 20:42:00 2021
    On 02-06-21 08:39, poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Nightfox <=-

    Nightfox wrote to Tracker1 <=-

    I had a 2012 17" MacBook for a little while. I thought it was good overall, but I wouldn't say I was overly impressed with it compared to other laptops.

    I had a 2010 17" MacBook Pro, which I loved. It was pretty much a desktop replacement for me. Loved that system, though unfortunately, it only lasted a few years before it died, and parts quickly became scarce. :(

    The killer laptop was the old Dell XPS 15; Retina-like resolution, lots
    of horsepower, greta build quality and much cheaper than the MBPs were buying when comparably equipped.

    Recently bought a Dell laptop, and I'm pretty happy with it.


    ... Brain: the apparatus with which we think we think
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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Nightfox on Sun Feb 7 06:57:00 2021
    Nightfox wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    I thought Apple stopped making 17" laptops?

    They have stopped. This was around 2012 or so.


    --- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ realitycheckBBS -- http://realitycheckBBS.org
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Tony Langdon on Sun Feb 7 06:58:00 2021
    Tony Langdon wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    The killer laptop was the old Dell XPS 15; Retina-like resolution, lots
    of horsepower, greta build quality and much cheaper than the MBPs were buying when comparably equipped.

    Recently bought a Dell laptop, and I'm pretty happy with it.

    I'm a hardcore Thinkpad fan, but working from home has soured me on black laptops. I like to go outside, get some air and work outside on sunny days, and my thinkpad gets way too hot. I'm thinking my old silver XPS 13 would
    fare better...




    ... Abandon desire
    --- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
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  • From Dream Master@VERT/CIAD to poindexter FORTRAN on Sun Feb 7 13:32:30 2021
    Re: Re: Apple Macs
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Nightfox on Sun Feb 07 2021 06:57 am

    I thought Apple stopped making 17" laptops?

    They have stopped. This was around 2012 or so.

    They now make the 16" MBP, which is a powerhouse for a MBP and I think it is overkill for a daily driver. If I were doing graphic or audio workloads, I could definitely see getting that instead of a 13" MBP (or the rumored 14" that's coming out later this year).

    Brian Klauss <-> Dream Master
    Caught in a Dream | caughtinadream.com a Synchronet BBS

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Caught in a Dream - caughtinadream.com
  • From Dream Master@VERT/CIAD to poindexter FORTRAN on Sun Feb 7 13:35:58 2021
    Re: Re: Apple Macs
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Tony Langdon on Sun Feb 07 2021 06:58 am

    I'm a hardcore Thinkpad fan, but working from home has soured me on black laptops. I like to go outside, get some air and work outside on sunny days, and my thinkpad gets way too hot. I'm thinking my old silver XPS 13 would fare better...

    My old company was Dell until about 2013/2014 then went Thinkpads. Initial quality of the Thinkpads was pretty impressive but I had too many issues with charging and battery life with three different Thinkpads between 2014 and 2019. My current company uses Dells. I hate the keyboard but it remains pretty solid.

    Brian Klauss <-> Dream Master
    Caught in a Dream | caughtinadream.com a Synchronet BBS

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Caught in a Dream - caughtinadream.com
  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to deon on Mon Feb 8 16:24:49 2021
    On 2/5/2021 5:08 PM, deon wrote:
    Really <3 Docker these days, as I can spin up/down everything I need as
    project dependencies and spin them down when switching to something
    else. But I still need more than 8gb ram typically.

    Wow, you must be running some large stuff on your laptop?

    Nothing too crazy... a typical work project, as an example, includes postgresql, redis, rabbitmq, an api, a couple worker services, the ui,
    and may run additional integration tests...

    Usually hit around 11-12gb of typical use if I'm not doing much with
    the various services in the background, a couple browsers, vs code and a terminal window or two.


    I too develop on a MacBook Pro - and my iMac - depends where I am as
    to which one I use.

    Not really using a mac right now... work laptop is a Dell (POS) and
    Desktop is an r9-3950X. Both currently using Windows 10, but most of
    my work is under WSL2 with Ubuntu, and Docker Desktop installed via WSL2
    as well.

    I think I've only given my iMac 4GB of ram for docker to work with
    (my laptop only gives docker 2GB), and I load some large DB's in it
    (there must be about 1-2mil records) and it performs OK, not fast I
    admit. Maybe that's not large? :)

    I have my work laptop capped to 12gb for docker, it usually hovers
    around 8-10gb or so, I'm on a loaner that only has 16gb right now, not
    sure what the plan is with my issued laptop (3rd motherboard in 2.5
    years, and now it blue screens on windows updates).


    But you are right - for developing, docker makes things pretty easy.
    I use "syncthing" to keep my laptop and imac development directory
    in sync, so when I switch between one or the other, I just kill the containers on my laptop and restart them on the imac and keep going
    (or visa-versa).

    Mostly not doing much syncing... just relying on source control (git)
    for the most part.

    When I'm finished with a feature, I push the code to my github,
    which (depending on the project), builds the container that ends
    up on the live server. With a Dockerfile that is consistent
    between environments there is rarely any localisation issues with deployment...

    I've got a few things like that... work projects have a PR process in
    place, then goes through a Dev->UAT->Prod release cycle. Other
    projects have different release cycles as different states/counties have different limitations on when releases can happen. Been a long, uphill battle, but most of our software is now released via CI/CD deployment agents/pipelines, and a lot of the testing is now containerized.

    The application I'm spending most of my time is docker-compose for local/testing and kubernetes release env.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan (tracker1)
    +o roughneckbbs.com
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com
  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to Tony Langdon on Mon Feb 8 17:35:54 2021
    On 2/7/2021 1:52 AM, Tony Langdon wrote:
    As far as WINE, from what I understand, WINE isn't a hardware emulator,
    it's just an 'emulator' of Windows APIs, mapping them to similar Linux
    APIs so that Windows binaries can run on *nix.

    "WINE" stands for "WINE Is Not An Emulator". Technically, it's an API translation layer, as you mentioned above.
    It isn't, but if you want to run an x86/x64 Windows application on WINE
    on an M1 mac, you'll need not only WINE but the x86/x64 emulation support.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan (tracker1)
    +o roughneckbbs.com
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com
  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to Dream Master on Mon Feb 8 17:40:39 2021
    On 2/7/2021 1:35 PM, Dream Master wrote:

    My old company was Dell until about 2013/2014 then went
    Thinkpads. Initial quality of the Thinkpads was pretty
    impressive but I had too many issues with charging and
    battery life with three different Thinkpads between 2014
    and 2019. My current company uses Dells. I hate the
    keyboard but it remains pretty solid.

    My work issue laptop is back at IT desk for the 4th time in
    about 2.5 years (Dell). It's had 2 motherboard replacements
    and currently blue screens on a windows update with a fresh
    install of windows. Not impressed.

    I'm usually docked, so really can't comment much on the
    keyboard/touchpad quality.

    Using a daskeyboard (mx brown) and logitech mouse with a 32"
    1440p display... I had a 42" 4k up until last march, but too
    much neck travel using it every day for work. My vision kind
    of sucks so higher resolution displays don't do much for me
    at all.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan (tracker1)
    +o roughneckbbs.com
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com
  • From Tony Langdon@VERT to poindexter FORTRAN on Wed Feb 10 19:36:00 2021
    On 02-07-21 06:58, poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    Recently bought a Dell laptop, and I'm pretty happy with it.

    I'm a hardcore Thinkpad fan, but working from home has soured me on
    black laptops. I like to go outside, get some air and work outside on sunny days, and my thinkpad gets way too hot. I'm thinking my old
    silver XPS 13 would fare better...

    Yeah, I quite like Thinkpads too. :)


    ... Freedom of the press is limited to those who have one.
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  • From Tony Langdon@VERT to Tracker1 on Wed Feb 10 19:37:00 2021
    On 02-08-21 17:35, Tracker1 wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    "WINE" stands for "WINE Is Not An Emulator". Technically, it's an API translation layer, as you mentioned above.
    It isn't, but if you want to run an x86/x64 Windows application on WINE
    on an M1 mac, you'll need not only WINE but the x86/x64 emulation
    support. --

    True, but the emulation is another layer altogether.


    ... 'Stupidity, if left untreated, is self-correcting' RAH.
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  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to Tony Langdon on Sat Feb 13 18:39:48 2021
    On 2/10/2021 1:37 AM, Tony Langdon wrote:
    "WINE" stands for "WINE Is Not An Emulator". Technically, it's an API
    translation layer, as you mentioned above.

    It isn't, but if you want to run an x86/x64 Windows application on WINE
    on an M1 mac, you'll need not only WINE but the x86/x64 emulation
    support. --

    True, but the emulation is another layer altogether.

    The point was, it's one of probably many reasons that apple likely won't
    be removing x86 emulation any time soon.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan (tracker1)
    +o roughneckbbs.com
    ---
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  • From Tony Langdon@VERT to Tracker1 on Sun Feb 14 20:45:00 2021
    On 02-13-21 18:39, Tracker1 wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    The point was, it's one of probably many reasons that apple likely
    won't be removing x86 emulation any time soon.

    True, but I was responding to the part about WINE, not hardware emulation.


    ... No, no, nurse! I said SLIP off his SPECTACLES!!
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  • From JIMMY ANDERSON@VERT to NIGHTFOX on Thu Feb 18 14:06:00 2021
    Nightfox wrote to Tracker1 <=-

    I had a 2012 17" MacBook for a little while. I thought it was good overall, but I wouldn't say I was overly impressed with it compared to other laptops. I don't think the screen was above average, and I
    didn't really care for the lack of physical buttons for the trackpad.
    As for the trackpad itself, I wouldn't call it "the best touchpad on
    any laptop" - I didn't really see anything spectacular about it that
    set it apart.

    My current unit is a MacBook Air "new model" -- no buttons on the
    trackpad, but it does have 'variable touch' - like a newer iPhone
    screen too...




    ... Deja Booboo: When you feel you've screwed this up before.
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  • From JIMMY ANDERSON@VERT to DREAM MASTER on Thu Feb 18 14:09:00 2021
    Dream Master wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    I thought Apple stopped making 17" laptops?

    They have stopped. This was around 2012 or so.

    They now make the 16" MBP, which is a powerhouse for a MBP and I think
    it is overkill for a daily driver. If I were doing graphic or audio workloads, I could definitely see getting that instead of a 13" MBP (or the rumored 14" that's coming out later this year).

    I have retiring teachers all the time ask me what Mac to get - they see
    the price of the Pro and assume it's 'better,' but for email, FB,
    Amazon, eBay, pictures. :-) Way overkill!




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